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True Lies (30th anniversary revisit)

July 15, 1994

I already reviewed TRUE LIES back in 2007, so I considered skipping it in this series. But it was a big hit (knocked FORREST GUMP out of the #1 slot for a week, became third highest grosser of the year), and such a straight up summer blockbuster, that it seems like it needs to be addressed. And I thought some people would be disappointed if I didn’t include it. But if you’re one of the many who consider it an action classic you might wish I abstained.

My arc with TRUE LIES goes like this: at the time I was hugely disappointed. It was an impressive action spectacle but it struck me as painfully racist and misogynistic. That wasn’t unheard of in those days, and I had a kneejerk revulsion to anything that seemed jingoistic or militaristic, so there were many beloved ‘90s hits that I watched feeling like the guy who didn’t belong at the rally. But I took TRUE LIES as a real betrayal from Cameron, who I admired so much for what he did with Ripley in ALIENS and Sarah Connor in T2, and whose TERMINATOR movies warned of out of control worship of military hardware. Now his big achievement was being the first guy allowed to film a particular war plane he thought was awesome.

When I finally revisited it for that review I still felt frustrated with all that stuff, but maybe a little more forgiving. I had some success letting things go and enjoying it on an action level. But I don’t know. Watching it now I still can’t say I like it. No, it’s not trying to be anything deep. The corny premise (taken from a French farce) is just a set up for some jokes and some action, and unlike any other movie in Cameron’s filmography it means to be lightweight, breezy entertainment. But it has so many undercurrents that leave a bad taste in my mouth that it’s hard to just smile and enjoy the ride.

Arnold Schwarzenegger (between LAST ACTION HERO and JUNIOR) is honestly great as Harry Tasker, secret agent on the trail of nuke-seeking “Crimson Jihad” terrorists. I want to love this character. He gets to do a suave tuxedo James Bond thing in the opening, but with Arnold type action of blowing people away, smashing people, sometimes saying his ridiculous one-liners (the climactic “You’re fired” is obviously the best thing in the movie). And I still love his politeness, the way he’s always apologizing to people inconvenienced by his action scenes, especially in the excellent horse vs. motorcycle chase.

But to me he represents this really retrograde view of married life that, at this age, bothers me more than any of the other stuff. It’s based in the comical premise that he lives a life of danger and thrills but has to keep it secret even from his wife Helen (Jamie Lee Curtis between MY GIRL 2 and HOUSE ARREST), and as a result she thinks he’s a boring nerd and is unfulfilled. It works as a metaphor – at the beginning their marriage lacks the necessary communication and honesty, and at the end they share their passions (by being spies together) and are much happier. But on the literal level the story depresses me because it’s this old idea that husband and wife spend their days at dull office jobs and their nights ignoring each other and don’t really have any bond or spark unless some kind of “adventure” (of a type that will never happen to us) happens to fall into their laps.

Tom Arnold’s Gib fills the familiar ’80s/‘90s archetype of the buddy from work who makes sexist jokes all the time. You’re supposed to laugh at his comments but think “oh, you rascal” and know that our hero isn’t like that. We saw this earlier in the summer with Larry Miller’s character in DREAM LOVER, but he turned out to be the bad guy [update: or maybe he was a red herring, I’ve already forgotten]! Gib is more uptight about operations than Harry, so he’s less comfortable using all the resources of a national security apparatus for a private grudge. But he does it, and together they indulge in the exact type of machismo that Cameron so handily dismantled in ALIENS. Bill Paxton (between FUTURE SHOCK and APOLLO 13) is so funny as the slimy weasel used car salesman who tries to seduce Helen by pretending to live a life coincidentally like Harry’s actual one, but the way he’s defeated is by being scared into peeing his pants (twice) and admitting he has a small penis. Hudson would’ve loved that shit.

I don’t want to restart the debate about how bad or not bad it is to have one-dimensional cartoon Arab terrorists as the bad guys. What seems almost more relevant now is that being such stereotypes makes them boring, flavorless villains, exactly as forgettable as the interchangeable leather jacket Euro-gangsters in the worst Steven Seagal DTV movies. The most memorable scene for main villain Aziz (Art Malik, THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS) is when he slaps his accomplice Juno (Tia Carrere, SHOWDOWN IN LITTLE TOKYO, HARLEY DAVIDSON AND THE MARLBORO MAN) really hard so the hero won’t be the only one seen treating women horribly. She’s more interesting than him, but stuck with the sidekick role.

The least forgivable section of the movie was always pretty infamous, or at least divisive. Believing Helen is cheating with Simon (when really she’s just suckered into helping him), Harry has her kidnapped by the agency, interrogates her using a voice distorter, torments her so much she cries and slams a stool against the one-way mirror. Then (shocking even Gib) he makes her believe she’ll go to prison if she doesn’t go undercover as a prostitute and do a strip tease for a client (actually him, but she doesn’t know it).

I should mention that Mrs. Vern had never seen TRUE LIES and was curious to watch it with me. She hadn’t commented much, but a few minutes into this scene said, “I don’t like this!” It was kind of uncomfortable to watch it with her, but not nearly as much as the first time I saw it when it was a sold out showing and the stranger in the seat next to me was literally drooling and giggling with delight. I remember Curtis being praised for looking great and having the guts to do it (deserved), but it continues to bother me that it’s presented as fun hotness despite the context. I’m glad she broke something over Harry’s head for this, but she should’ve divorced him without mercy, there should’ve been congressional hearings, Harry and Gib should’ve done time.

The more the movie throws this kind of sordid shit at me the less forgiving I get about its smaller faults, like its structure as an action movie. To me the best action is the horse chase and the bathroom fight. The helicopter chase over the bridge is also great and the excellent stuntwork holds up, so it makes a good climax. And I do remember the Harrier vs. building sequence seeming really impressive at the time, but I don’t think it holds up so well. I guess it was logical to make it personal by having their daughter (Eliza Dushku, THIS BOY’S LIFE) taken hostage, but to me it’s the only James Cameron fake out ending that makes me wonder if it should’ve been the real ending. For me it doesn’t earn the 2 hours and 21 minute runtime, but to be fair, anyone who’s more into it than me probly appreciates it.

Sorry to bring up an extra dark note but usually when a movie has action this great I try to mention whoever’s listed as stunt coordinator or action director and what some of their other credits are. I won’t do that here because in 2018 Eliza Dushku, who was 12 years old when she made the movie, alleged in detail how the stunt coordinator lured her to his hotel room and sexually assaulted her. She fortunately told adults what happened, but calls it “no small coincidence” that right after one of them confronted him, a stunt on the Harrier went wrong and she broke her ribs.

It clearly wasn’t properly addressed at the time, because the perpetrator wasn’t fired or prosecuted, and continued to work for decades, including on some movies I like. Dushku said she was prompted to finally speak up by the combination of the #MeToo movement and seeing a recent photo of him with his arm around a young woman. After her post (and a very unconvincing denial) he was finally dropped by his agency and stopped working.

One of the many creepy details Dushku mentions is that the guy paid special attention to her and openly called her the nickname “Jailbait” on set. She remembers having to ask her older brother what it meant, and now wonders how no adults thought that was weird enough to intervene. I don’t believe there’s a connection between the attitudes toward women in the movie and the failures that allowed that guy to get away with that for so long, except that they both come from the same sickness in society. Dushku’s story is a reminder to put your foot down as soon as you see that shit. So fuck you Gib, I don’t think your “Women, can’t live with ’em, can’t kill ’em” line is cute.


I can’t frame this as a question of whether or not TRUE LIES holds up, or is dated. All of the things that are fucked up about it were already fucked up at the time. And as you know I often enjoy period-specific references that make a movie act as a time capsule. In this case those are: Gib saying that kids’ only role models these days are Axl Rose and Madonna, Gib referencing the daytime talk show host Sally Jesse Raphael, and Harry referring to two guys as Beavis and Butthead.

It’s kind of crazy to think about the fact that TRUE LIES was 30 years ago and Cameron has only directed three movies since. One is a period piece and the other two are in the future, so the only James Cameron depictions of contemporary life are contained to a 12 year period in the ‘80s and ‘90s. If he ever does it again it will seem like a weird new James Cameron, I bet. So far this one doesn’t make me think “Damn, they don’t make movies that look like that anymore!” like his earlier ones do, but I suppose that could change with time.

Considering the filmography, it’s not too much of an insult to say it, but TRUE LIES is definitely in the bottom two James Cameron directorial works. I’m pretty sure it’s in last place for me, because I enjoyed PIRANHA PART TWO: THE SPAWNING for what it was, but I don’t remember it well enough to make a definitive comparison. I just think it’s a movie that does something cool with limited means, while this uses enormous resources for something ugly.

But you know what? He hasn’t repeated those things. When the woman strips for the man in TITANIC it’s her idea, and it became an all-timer steamy PG-13 scene. AVATAR has action and romance without any women having to be humiliated. When villains have been needed, so far, Cameron has turned his aim at a sci-fi version of western colonial powers. (Or a possessive Wall Street douche with no appreciation for modern art.) So I don’t hold TRUE LIES against him. I’m just not buying the blu-ray now that it finally exists.

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73 Responses to “True Lies (30th anniversary revisit)”

  1. Agreed on all counts. I watched this a few weeks ago, possibly for the first time from start to finish, and found the whole thing distasteful. The action is decent, though not up to par with T2, and Arnold doing a Bond riff is fun for a while. Jamie Lee Curtis does look great and has some excellent physical acting in this, especially the comedic bits, but the whole premise is too skeevy for me. Harry wields the full unchecked power of the state to stalk and torture his wife, and it’s supposed to be funny. Tom Arnold’s character sexualizes Harry’s 14 year old daughter, who was played by a 12 year old actress being molested by the stunt coordinator, and it’s supposed to be funny. Gross.

    As legend goes, Cameron and Schwarzenegger got into an argument on set and Cameron purportedly yelled “Do you want Paul Verhoeven to finish this motherfucker?” That got me thinking about what a Verhoeven version would look like. I think you could barely change the script, and somehow it would take on a new level of meaning. Rather than an angry farce from a recently divorced man, we’d get a satire of American masculinity and imperialism in mid-life crisis.

  2. While I hesitate to endorse chauvinistic attitudes, I perceive the rationale behind Harry’s decision to interrogate and manipulate Helen as stemming from his observation of her excitement with Paxton, compounded by his anger over her attempted infidelity. It almost seemed like a provocative gesture of, “Here, try this and see what you think.” True Lies holds a special place in my heart, particularly for my wife, who adores it even more. I recall discussions during its release about criticisms regarding the portrayal of female power, where Helen’s character was seen as reflecting Cameron’s personal disillusionment following his breakup with Kathryn Bigelow. While Cameron may have inadvertently infused a chauvinistic perspective into this blockbuster, I believe such sentiments were transient for him. Personally, I feel the storyline involving cheating, interrogation, and striptease could have been omitted, potentially enhancing my admiration for the film even further.

  3. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa… we don’t like Hudson?

  4. I can enjoy this on its own terms even though it’s my least favourite Cameron. There’s something so willfully naive about its Goodies vs Baddies Americanism, it comes across to me as thoughtless in its racism and misogyny rather than hateful or mean-spirited. Like it’s a machine-tooled but sincere spectacle for 12 year-old boys. That’s not the best possible thing for a Cameron movie to be, obviously, but it’s an easier pill to swallow than something like 13 HOURS or AIR FORCE ONE where the films’ odious politics and subtext have a real-world purpose.

    Nothing in TRUE LIES is relevant to the real world, not the cartoon villains or the sitcom marriage; it’s an American Bond movie with Harrier jump jets instead of Royal Navy warships, an eye-patched Charlton Heston instead of a Union Jack parachute, and a loyal suburban family unit instead of Bond’s wanton, irrepressible libido. Though it must be said that even James Bond had turned on his own government by this point, and his urge to fuck and kill his way around the planet was a pretty accurate metaphor for British colonialism – whereas Harry Tasker spends most of this story defending his national and familial homestead, very much the opposite of American foreign policy. So even in 1994 TRUE LIES was kind of shallow and uncomplicated even compared to the genre standard of the era. On the other hand, the action is a step up from most Bond movies.

    (Another Bond connection is that Art Malik had a way more charismatic role in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, which was probably what landed him this gig.)

    Maybe I’m giving Cameron too much benefit of the doubt, but since the politics and values of TRUE LIES are pretty much in opposition to those of all his other films and everything I’ve seen him say in interviews, I prefer to assume he meant no harm. I’ve also watched this with two women who raved about Jamie Lee Curtis’s performance and especially the striptease scene, which I offer not as a definitive female perspective on the film but just to say that it did work as intended for at least two members of the audience. And I do think she’s genuinely great in this.

    In conclusion I prefer ON HER MAJESTY’S SECRET SERVICE.

  5. Bill Reed – I agree, Verhoeven would have added more interesting layers to this script and probably delivered just as well on the action scenes.

  6. I find the accusations of misogyny a bit overstated. I can’t argue that the comedic sense of this movie couldn’t be better calibrated, but to me it seems obvious that the target of the humor is Harry’s jealousy and hypocrisy. Helen gets put through the wringer, for sure, and I agree that Harry should be more clearly taken to task for it, but she’s never the butt of the joke. We are obviously meant to see Harry as wrong-headed at every turn. Even his boomer-humor stereotype misogynist buddy thinks he’s being an asshole and takes Helen’s side. Of course all of Harry’s actions would be deplorable in the real
    world, but this movie doesn’t take place anywhere near the real world. It takes place in the realm of farce, where normal human emotions and reactions are blown up into outsized caricatures.

    I think it’s a casting problem. Arnold is great but we’re so accustomed to seeing him as the hero that it’s hard to accept that maybe the movie doesn’t want you to take his side. I feel like the script is missing a scene or two where the breach of trust his actions both before and during the film represent is really hammered out. Arnold’s charm has some heavy lifting to do to make us agree that he’s learned his lesson by the end, and I don’t blame anyone for not thinking that happy ending is earned.

  7. Great review Vern!

    Need to give this a rewatch.

    Arnold’s show on Netflix called FUBAR (not very good and didn’t finish the first season) seemed to flesh out what True Lies could have been if his family never figured out his secret spy life and the consequences were divorce and generational deception in that his daughter chooses the same path. Just as firmly planted in the realm of farce as Mr. Majestyk mentioned if not even more so but also seems takes that similar character to task for his choices than True Lies did with Harry.

  8. James Cameron is a pacifist who fetishizes military hardware, an anti-colonialist who sometimes falls back on lazy ethnic stereotypes, and a feminist with a chauvinistic lining. I think he holds his better views honestly and sincerely, but the bad side won out with this one. Amazing horse sequence, though.

  9. Vern, I appreciate you including this and appreciate your take, especially that you didn’t rehash all the old debates. You’re right about the cliche depiction of marriage.

    I share Maj’s interpretation that Harry is the bad guy in that subplot and the butt of the joke by overreacting so excessively. And agree perhaps Arnold reads too heroic to pull that off.

    But it’s been 30 years. Time for me to let it go. There’s a bizarre 4K with weird faces now.

  10. Vern, I appreciate you including this and appreciate your take, especially that you didn’t rehash all the old debates. You’re right about the cliche depiction of marriage.

    I share Maj’s interpretation that Harry is the bad guy in that subplot and the butt of the joke by overreacting so excessively. And agree perhaps Arnold reads too heroic to pull that off.

    But it’s been 30 years. Time for me to let it go. There’s a bizarre 4K with weird faces now.

  11. A while ago the movie ran on TV again and while my mother watched it, my sister came home from work during the bathroom fight scene. She just kept watching although she was tired as hell, but she was really captivated by the movie and wanted to see what happened next. Next morning she told me that she loved it and laughed the loudest at all the shit they put Jamie Lee Curtis through. Obviously my sister doesn’t speak for all women, but for her it played like some kind of cringe comedy. I guess how over the top the movie is, helps in that regard.

    And I said it before in the previous review, I think, it’s interesting how almost un-racist and sympathetic the portrayal of the terrorists comes across in a post-9/11 world. Their leader doesn’t even look like Bin Laden, they are often silly goofs who struggle with minor things like how to use a video camera and even get slapstick deaths that don’t feel like a comeuppance, but, well, just a joke! Of course these villains are still an offensive depiction, like pretty much every foreign villain in any American action movie, but compared to what we got in the 21st century, the movie almost feels progressive in that regard!

  12. I get the criticism regarding the villain’s stereotypes and the way Harry treats his wife, but True Lies is far from being the only movie with that approach. Any James Bond pre-Daniel Craig was very racist (especially by today’s standards) and not really feminist… that applies to many action movies of the 80’s and 90’s. Not to say that it should not be flagged, but somehow I feel True Lies has always been targeted on these issues while other movies got a pass.
    It never bothered me too much as I am taking this as a “fantasy” movie – like most of the blockbusters of the time. I remember watching this one in cinema with my girlfriend at a time, and this was actually the first Schwarzenegger movie she enjoyed – especially because of the relationship to Jamie Lee Curtis’ character.

    Having said that – I do agree that this is probably James Cameron’s weakest movie… it feels like something he did to get the cash for Titanic afterwards. While it is – like any Cameron movie – technically brilliant, it does not have the edge that his Terminator movies had. It is probably also the most “Schwarzenegger” movie – at least as he wanted to be successful, making expensive blockbuster for the whole family, combining fun and action. It is known that he got into True Lies after the failure of Last Action Hero (I think it is explained in the Netflix documentary on Schwarzy)… He thought Last Action Hero would be massive – the perfect mix of action and humor – and it just did not click with audiences, hence True Lies which is much more safe as a movie (I much prefer Last Action Hero personally)…

    So not a bad movie, but below Cameron’s capabilities and maybe too safe for Schwarzy…
    The French movie it was remade from (La Totale!) is all fun and no action… not a great movie but a typical French comedy with a lot of “vaudeville” elements… the whole subplot with the fake spy flirting with the wife was the key element of it, and maybe that is what does not really fit into an American summer blockbuster.

  13. “I feel True Lies has always been targeted on these issues while other movies got a pass.”

    Probably because this is a James Fucking Cameron movie. An acclaimed, Oscar winning film maker who basically invented [citation needed] the strong female action hero with Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley. James Bond being awful to women? Eh, that’s kinda his thing. Some Chuck Norris Cannon picture going all out on racist stereotypes? Well, it were the 80s and that was a B-movie. And most of all neither of them were (intentional) comedies.

    It also must be said that this is one of those “product of its time” affairs. I don’t really remember much of a controversy about TRUE LIES when it came out. But I also didn’t remember a controversy about AMERICAN PIE when it came out. There surely were people who always thought that certain things were awful from the start, but most audiences didn’t care.

  14. Fair Point CJ Holden – and it makes me wonder if Cameron himself would not see Jamie Lee Curtis’ character as another example of strong female action hero… given she starts the film as a clumsy wife and ends up taking charge (remember, she takes the “spy” job because she wants to protect her family) and kicking Tia Carrere’s ass at the end… obviously you can question that unlike Ripley and Sarah Connor, Jamie Lee Curtis has to act like a hooker to get into the action… but she is not just the damsel in distress.

  15. Oh, in a way, Curtis does count as strong female Cameron character for exactly the reasons you named. Even Sarah Connor started out as helpless waitress who just screamed in terror while a man saved her. Sure, Curtis’ arc here is more misguided, but as it has been noted, we are not supposed to laugh at her and she does end up kicking ass.

  16. Are the terrorists in this movie really any less one-dimensional than the mercenaries in Avatar?

  17. grimgrinningchris

    July 19th, 2024 at 8:12 am

    I love this movie despite its more dubious aspects which have been discussed here with measured thoughts. As for Dushku, her situation was clearly deplorable. But I like to think they helped her become the woman she is today. She seems like she would and COULD knock anyone that disrespected her’s dick in the dirt and hawk tuah on their grave after.
    Nobody should have to suffer abuse or trauma to become strong. But when those that do do, it’s always good to see the rise. I’d be curious on JLC’s thoughts on what happened to Eliza during the movies filming vs how she turned out. It’s almost a Laurie Strode story. I really like Dushku. She always has such effortless confidence onscreen. I’d like to see her more. She needs to do a Scott Adkins movie and kick some ass.

  18. I just watched this one for the first time earlier this year. And I’ll admit that the interrogation scene in particular made me uncomfortable. But my wife, who is usually pretty quick to point out when something is sexist, seemed okay with it. I think part of the reason is because it’s an older movie, and she has already been exposed to it.

    But I do think Marc has a point. Harry realizes that the whole espionage game was exciting for his wife and he’s trying to recreate it for her. In the real world, that is tantamount to abuse, but in the heightened world of the movie, it is a bit closer to role playing in the bedroom.

    I still think this is probably Cameron’s worst (although I haven’t watched the Piranha movie). But those action scenes hold up incredibly well, especially the horse and motorcycle chase.

    I did think it was funny that the kidnapping of the daughter comes out of nowhere, and we’re told about it randomly. It’s just shoved into the climax to up the stakes without worrying about whether it makes sense.

  19. grimgrinningchris

    July 19th, 2024 at 8:18 am

    And I hadn’t even thought of it before but now I’m also curious if she was subjected to similar (albeit at an older age) behavior by Whedon when she was doing Buffy. I dont recall her making statements when all of that exploded but I could be wrong.

  20. Great review. I always felt alone in not liking this one. It’s dumb and mean spirted on so many levels. The way Arnold treats his wife who he has been lying to for years is crazy!

  21. grimgrinningchris

    July 19th, 2024 at 10:35 am

    Okay. The lying is not optimal relationship fodder. Agreed fully. But we’ve excused superheroes lying, even to their partners and families and friends, for decades now. For the sake of protecting them. He’s not being a shit. He adores his wife. His ruse with her is only to protect her from the dangers of his real job.

  22. I think you can have a debate on the moral dimensions of Harry’s actions. They certainly seem like violations, to the point where I do feel like the movie is an awkward watch today.

    But it gets to the matter of this stuff being played for comedy. Why isn’t it funny today? Because in 1994, such an idea of a power dynamic was funny, the cruelty and dishonesty towards someone who is not only a female, but doesn’t have the resources of the State behind her. Maybe you think it’s moral, maybe you don’t. But it’s not the laugh riot it once was, right?

    I bring this up because I think those defending these outdated mores are defending the right to punch down and to mock/penalize those underneath them. Basically, no Sacred Cows in comedy. That might be the desire, and I get what they’re saying from a political perspective even if I don’t agree. But, honestly, I don’t think even they are laughing at that any more. I really don’t think you’ll hear the same uproarious laughter during the interrogation scenes in any theater showing this movie today, no matter who is in the audience. It’s an insane sort of privilege to complain that you should have the right to be unfunny in 2024.

  23. My girlfriend at the time of release pointed out her conflict with the Jamie Lee Curtis character etc. ; said girlfriend loved the film for what it was – non-stop, over the top comedic action – but intellectually she reacted negatively to a lot of what involved Helen – however her conflict arose from the fact that Curtis is so friggin’ good in the role that she ended up loving it so much. I think this is the crux of the problem with it – Curtis is so winning, so (for lack of a better word) ‘lovable’ that we are won over by the performance. She specifically talked about the striptease scene – she should hate the entire thing – but Curtis just wins her over.

    None of this excuses some of the films failings, but it explains some reactions.

    I admit – I love the movie – it is at once a perfect, brilliant send up of James Bond films (there cultural cache was somewhat different in the early 1990s), it’s one of the greatest action movies ever – it has Arnie’s best performance – it has truly outstanding, jaw dropping stunts – like all Cameron movies it’s a spectacle.

    It’s interesting how this was a bit of a comeback film for Arnold – LAST ACTION HERO was a huge flop (somewhat critically rehabilitated now,) his next action film after TRUE LIES was a version of this – ERASER – and both comedies were only middlingly successful in the immediate aftermath – JUNIOR and JINGLE ALL THE WAY. By the end of the 90s his run as a box-office champ were at and end.

    As a note – placing the more objectionable story beats in context – I had never seen even a minute of the sitcom FRIENDS until the fall of 2020 – a local channel was running the show in it’s entirety from beginning to end for the month of December – I decided to sit down and watch 4 hours a day everyday of it. Basically – you will not find even one episode of the show that does not contain things that are just as offensive, poorly conceived, out right sexist,misogynistic etc., than anything in TRUE LIES – I guess this shows that we have a bit better understanding of things today?

    Glaive Robber does make a legitimate point above that perhaps things that are played for comedy fall under a different consideration – perhaps the greatest comedy film of all time is A FISH CALLED WANDA – and it is amongst the most mean spirited, violent films imaginable.

    It is interesting that at least in public comments about a sequel, Cameron at least has only ever mentioned that the reason for not pursuing a sequel come down to how ‘terrorism wasn’t funny anymore (after 9-11.)’ Not howobjectifying,shaming or mistreating women, not infantilizing/stereotyping ethnic groups etc. might be an issue.

  24. It’s interesting that A FISH CALLED WANDA also features an even more outrageously funny, sexy performance from Curtis.

  25. I loved this movie back in the day. I haven’t seen it in a lot of years, so I can’t say how I’d feel now, but I still looked back on it fondly. I can definitely see and agree with the problems regarding Harry’s treatment of Helen and just the overall portrayal of the marriage. Someone has already brought up how great Curtis is in the role, which makes it hard to dislike. I will also say that while it’s not great, I think there are some mitigating factors. I think a lot of that is about Harry’s intentions. As already has been said, I think he was mostly trying to give Helen the excitement she was looking for. Also, in doing that, he was trying to bond with her. He wanted to repair their relationship and I think he was excited to discover how much being his true self would appeal to her. He went about it all totally hamfisted, but I believe he was mostly good intentioned. Also, like Majestyk said, we weren’t supposed to really be on his side with this hamfisted attempt. Like how the strip tease backfired on him. I do not think he was trying to humiliate her, but whatever he thought was going to happen there, he was not prepared for her to short circuit his brain with her hotness. She comes out the winner there and maybe had that been the end she would’ve stormed off and started divorce proceedings. Even with the problems, it was nice to have a star of Curtis’ talent co-starring in an action comedy where they at least had elements of romance. People who that would appeal to often have to take what we can get, even if it’s got issues.

  26. TThere was some talk about the movie being sexist back in the day, just not everyone had a website to bang out constant think pieces. And while to some extent that’s true, all they’d need to do is change one single thing and no one would have given a shit.

    Drop the strip tease.

    That’s the only reason it eas controversial…not the lying or whatever. They could have even thrown in a few sentences (been forever since I’ve seen it so maybe they did) where Arnold talks about how clearly his wife wants some excitement and then gives it to her. Then you drop the strip scene. Then it totally would work better in this farce.

    As for the rest, I don’t care too much about the bad guys being generic because it doesn’t matter too much, it’s not a villain movie, we just need a foe to provide the action. And the action at that time was pretty next level…the opening is amazing, the bathroom fight was a fight like you’d hardly seen in an American movie…brutal, fast, frantic and awesome. The only bit I can’t believe Cameron dropped is from the trailer where the guy jumps on the back of the plane, that Arnold doesn’t put it on auto pilot and jump on the back for a big fist fight. It’s definitely lesser tier Cameron but lesser tier Cameron still towers over most other actioners.

  27. grimgrinningchris

    July 19th, 2024 at 5:17 pm

    Maggie wins again.

  28. Aw, thanks grimgrinningchris. I’ve had a pretty crummy week and that really felt nice.

  29. CJ, Charles and everyone else, I was there and I can attest the “True Lies is sexist” debate has been going on since 1994. There was no Internet realty back then and still it was widespread enough to make its way to the movie theater and audiences. Siskel and Ebert in particular may have had the biggest platform to object to it.

  30. For me, TRUE LIES remains a deeply schizophrenic film. Even watching it in the theatres, I was struck by how 30 opening minutes and 2 great action scenes prime you for another amazing James Cameron directed, Arnie starring action extravaganza, only to have it all grind to a thudding halt as it transforms into a domestic drama. Someone said, drop the strip tease. I say, drop the interrogation and everything after it until the terrorists come back into the picture. Sure, you’d be denied a great Curtis comedy performance and a bodacious strip tease, but seriously none of it works for me.

    Right up to the point Harry and Gib storm the trailer park and yank Helen away from Bill Paxton (God, I miss the guy!), it broadly plays out like a farce that mostly works. It’s the interrogation that tips it into mean spiritedness.

    And Jesus, what comes after…Harry’s plan post interrogation is deeply fucking stupid.

    So let’s break it down Harry, your amazing plan is to blackmail your wife into posing like a hooker, to seduce a mark and then bug his room, with you yourself playing said mark, aided by a recorded voice over that sounds like a skeezy French Lounge Lizard, force her to strip and lie on the bed, and then you’d reveal yourself and Helen, so overcome with gratitude, would just melt into your arms? Great plan, there.

    I’d wager my left nut that had Aziz and gang not done a coitus interruptus, Harry’d be dodging more divorce summons than bullets.

    The action continues this weird tonal shifts, it’s like Cameron couldn’t figure out if he wanted to go for stylish, elegant brutality or cartoonish silliness. So the bathroom fight’s a keeper as is the horse vs bike scene (although weird editing choices make you see the stuntman on the horse more than you’re supposed to). The fight at the compound is ok but then you get that fucking Uzi tumbling down the stairs and killing everybody. The bridge scene is phenomenal, a masterclass of shooting and editing but the Harrier Jet at the office does tend to go on a little long and fatigue kinda sets in and Aziz getting dispatched by sitting on a missile that’s fired onto another chopper is pure Wile E Coyote/Road Runner territory.

    Didn’t mind the bad guys (look, Battery Aziz! is still a howler!) and I give the movie props for acknowledging terrorism which springs from Radical Islamist Fundamentalism as opposed to today’s Hollywood which pretends there’s no such thing, and TRUE LIES is still something I rewatch more than TITANIC and AVATAR.

    But it remains, for me at least, the reverse of THE ABYSS, which just keeps getting more fascinating the more I see it

    Interesting note: Cameron was also in the midst of a divorce shooting THE ABYSS, this time from Gale Ann Hurd, which most likely explains Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio’s shrewish, shill performance and her character at one point being charmingly described as “The Queen Bitch Of The Universe”

  31. Drop the striptease for the sexism issue. Drop the interrogation for the boring shit, which I agree grinds the movie to a halt. Would have been maybe better if the terrorists just kidnapped Curtis or something and she had to escape instead of 40 minutes of that domestic comedy act.

    The Uzi falling down the stairs was classic though, Audience was dying during that and I love the audacity. But yeah the movie does jump around with comedy action bits and that brutal bathroom fight which seems like a totally different flick.

    I feel like we still get plenty of movies with those pesky Bad Arabs, but it’s harder to use them in lighter comedy fare after being in real war with them for all this time. But they still get mowed down real good in dramatic action films that are more realistic.

  32. The Uzi falling down the stairs was directly taken from the original French version (La Totale!)…

  33. The way you felt about the portrayal of marriage in this is similar to how my wife and I felt watching The Incredibles for the first time recently. Mr. Incredible is bad husband and a bad father, but we are supposed to feel sorry for him because he doesn’t get to have super-adventures anymore? Elastigirl barely gets to be a character, if not for her scene with Edna Mode she would barely have anything. And my wife had no clue about the long-running debate about Bird’s Rand-ian ideas, but she totally picked up on that element and thought it was odd. Put both those elements togetehr and you get a family movie about how a man should not be limited by the law, society, or his own wife and children when he could be achieving greatness. And that came out in 2004, a full 10 years after True Lies seemed retrograde!

  34. I haven’t rewatched either in many years, but I seem to remember Elastigirl being the lead in INCREDIBLES 2. If you end up watching that it’ll be interesting to see whether it addresses your misgivings or not. It picks up immediately after the first one but was made 14 years later.

  35. THE INCREDIBLES is the first Rand-ian story ever about how important it is to use your talents to help and risk your life for others.

  36. I was a kid when I last saw True Lies. I remember loving it back then. I wonder what my reaction would be to seeing it again as an adult. I didn’t register the misogyny and racism at all back then. I’ve been holding back, waiting for the possible 4K release. Now that the 4K Blu-ray is here, I’m not sure if I want to get it at all, to not support the way Cameron has been handling the 4K remasters of his films. They seem terrible, and I don’t want to support the AI-assisted remastering of old films.

    If you don’t know what’s up with the Cameron 4K remasters, here’s a good YouTube video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxOqWYytypg

  37. I liked this back in the day but it feels a little stale now. It seems to drag unnecessarily, the villains are goofy and obvious, and the tone is just weird. We are clearly not supposed to take any of it seriously but there aren’t enough actual jokes to make it worth your while.

    My friends and I still occasionally say “She’s got an ass like a ten year old boy” which is just such an out of left field creepy and perfectly delivered line, and Arnold’s reaction is also perfect.

    Also yes Tom Arnold’s weird misogynist buddy character is a little cringey at times, but his line about his ex wife taking the ice cube trays from the freezer is perfect too. Mostly from the delivery – (Tom) Arnold delivers it with a kind of twisted joy, whereas if it was delivered as it was probably written on the page (as bitter and hateful) itt would be fine I guess. But Tom says it with a conspirational and gleeful tone, he is overjoyed that his friend is having relationship problems! He knows this area, he has the expertise for once, he now has something he can help with and talk about. This isn’t exactly a warm and caring message but as somebody who has gone through two divorces it is painfully true to life.

    I always liked the truth serum scene too.

  38. Given the general focus of the discussion on cultural norms and gender sex/power dynamics that don’t hold up well 30 years later, I’m surprised to see no discussion of Arnold himself. He has a pretty well-documented record of sexual harrassment / groping and infidelity type behaviors, some of which is pretty well-documented / unassailable. I think whether it’s Arnold or Bill Clinton or Snoop Dogg or whomever, it’s just an uncomfortable fact that a lot of otherwise celebrated / beloved dude types of figures in pop culture have sex scandal or sketchy histories that don’t square well with current norms, particularly if you identify as on the more progressive side of the spectrum. More generally, having pretty shitty views toward women and fidelity is very much a feature of dude film/pop cultural consciousness, up until the last 10 years or so, when you really start to see a shift to these things being considred not-okay by (mostly) progressive viewers.

    I don’t have the energy to advance any big thesis here, other than that it seems like there’s a lot of hand-wringing and contorting going on here, when all of this seems pretty straightforward to me: In 1994, definitely Arnold and probably the modal (male) Arnold fan (which is a lot of people!!) was completely comfortable with all of this horny, rapey/harassy/objectify-ey stuff, which was rationalized as “boys will be boys” (“locker room talk,” lol). It really wasn’t until 2016-2017 that you’ve started to see a critical mass of folks being really vocally, consistently, stridently not okay with this stuff, and that’s pretty much what’s going on here. Any effort to rationalize or justify or re-interpret the behavior besides “none of these guys had any problem with this stuff in 1994, because all of this stuff seemed fine and funny to the average guy in 1994” seems pretty much doomed and pointless. Which is not to say that you can or should give it a pass if you find it so offensive as to suck the joy out of the movie (it might or might not, depending on how you approach it as a product of its times).

  39. I haven’t watched this one in a while but I’ve always regarded it as neck-and-neck with Predator as Arnie’s, best one-off, non-franchise movie. I think his most iconic, satisfying appearances have always been as the Terminator or Conan, but outside of those two properties, this is one of his best, easily kicking the shit out of movies like Eraser, Collateral Damage, Total Recall, Last Action Hero and Commando in terms of entertainment value and production quality. It has a sense of humor about the genre, is good-looking, moves along very deftly, and makes excellent use of Arnie’s persona: this borderline super heroic spy is a big enough character to fit Arnie’s personality, you don’t even question him in the role. In a lot of his non-Trrminator, non-Conan movies that isn’t the case. In his one-offs at some point I usually think to myself something like, “Isn’t it weird that the undercover Kindergarten Cop is a huge musclebound hulk with a thick Austrian accent?”

    It never really bothered me that it used religiously extreme Muslims as the terrorist villains because: (a) that’s actually relatively rare in movies; and (b) you know what, occasionally terrorist groups are extremist Muslims. It wouldn’t be cool if Hollywood always made the bad guys like the way native Americans were go-to antagonists in so many westerns. But I think its okay for a rare movie like this one to go thi route.

  40. “this is one of his best, easily kicking the shit out of movies like Eraser, Collateral Damage, Total Recall, Last Action Hero and Commando in terms of entertainment value and production quality”

    Eh…I’d probably take TOTAL RECALL off that list as in a neck-to-neck race between 2 Arnie non-franchise actioners where he’s a supposedly everyday man but in reality is a lethal secret agent, RECALL would cross the finish line first. It boasts equally awesome production values, kick ass brutal action and is an audacious mind-fuck to boot.

    Not to mention, it makes the right choice with respect to this pop quiz:

    If you’re built like a 6′ 2″ Austrian Oak whose muscles have little muscles of their own, which of the following undercover professions would you choose where they’d go unremarked upon?

    a) Construction Worker
    b) Computer Salesman

  41. Kay Kay, I hear you on Total Recall, it has its moments, but I’d personally rate it below this. TR has the Austrian Muscleman conundrum even more than most of Arnie’s movies. In the beginning his character is supposed to be convincing as an apparent everyman, and ostensibly it’s supposed to be an unexpected ‘reveal” when his latent ass-kicking capabilities start waking up and coming back online. Of all people to put into an Act I “everyman” scenario, Schwarzenegger, who still looked like Mr. Universe at the time, is kind of the most ridiculous choice. That’s a pretty good example of a movie that might have been better served with a more flexible actor who could be convincing in both parts of the role. Bruce Willis would have been perfect because he’s played both hapless, incompetent characters and badass characters, so you might not’ve known which to expect going into TR, but the movie would let him do both. Another issue I have with TR is that I think the sets look small and cheap a lot of the time, kind of like a Star Trek Next Gen episode.

    Anyway, one other observation about True Lies. The hotel scene never struck me as cruel to Jamie Lee Curtis (or her character). If memory serves it happens after Arnie has interrogated her anonymously and has realized that he’s been neglecting his wife, and she’s starving for excitement. It seems to me that the hotel thing is supposed to be a brief put on to give her a little zing, a little jolt of the electricity she’s looking for, and that he would’ve taken her off the hook really at any moment if not for the bad guys’ interruption. That sequence also allows Curtis and her character to steal the scene by being way more up to the challenge, courage-wise, than Arnie’s character could have previously fathomed. This is an only-in-the movies scene that’s harmless and works for what it is. It’s nothing to get upset about.

  42. Cut the striptease???

    Boy is my finger not on the pulse of the generation.

    For me, the striptease, and the sequence around it, is the only reason you make this movie. Otherwise its a generic James Bond knock-off.

  43. I don’t agree with the premise that Arnold playing unlikely characters is a negative. That’s part of why his movies rule. Same goes for Van Damme.

  44. It might also improve the movie if Curtis was involved more in the climax. Arnie rescues her, they kiss, then she disappears from the movie and is suddenly part of the team at the end. Put her in the damn jet with Arnold! It’s her kid in trouble too. Having them work as a team in a big exciting action scene would better cement the idea of this couple fully realizing who each other is and bringing them back together as partners.

    Also, I agree the AI restoration and blue filter they appeared to slap on there doesn’t help the movie either.

  45. grimgrinningchris

    July 22nd, 2024 at 8:03 am

    Let’s not forget that regardless of context and hindsight and needling and deconstruction… Curtis herself is on record saying the strip tease sequence is “the most badass” (quotes for both accuracy because those are her words… and to drive the point) she’d ever felt on camera. I’ll take her hot take over anyone’s.

  46. I don’t agree with everyone talking about hindsight and such..this was being talked about THEN. It’s not just hindsight. Bill is right, if Curtis had been more involved in the end it prob would have been better.

    Drew, this would be far from a generic James Bond movie without the strip…this movie was better than any James Bond movies was, technically, action wise, etc. Even the 80s Bonds were creaky as fuuuuuck, look at the truck chase in Licsense to Kill, which was at that time the last Bond flick. Some awesome stunts, all boringingly shot and languishly edited. I was right in the wheelhouse for that kind of stuff back then and thought that stuff was pretty lame. And it’s not as if no Bond movie had women around to be sex objects so it’s not like having a strip really sets it apart so much except for making it more blatant. All of the stuff preceeding the strip sets it apart from Bond, but that stuff is also the more dull shit.

  47. grimgrinningchris

    July 22nd, 2024 at 8:23 am

    Muh. I’m not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing here. Though you’re right that time frame doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that Curtis felt empowered by the scene, not demeaned. And how she felt about it is obviously far more important than how anyone else on the planet felt about then or anyone else on the planet feels about it now.

  48. We were disagreeing and how Curtis thinks about it doesn’t really matter more than anyone else. It does to her obviously, and great that she thinks that way. But, Harvey Weinstein thinks he did nothing wrong. I don’t care what he thinks.

    Personally I’m not offended by that scene but I totally see where people are coming from, and did back then too.

    Y’all know, speaking of hindsight and 90s action flicks, I remember how The Siege was called out in the late 90s for daring to be racist enough to portray Muslim terrorists in New York, what a fantastical idea.

  49. Anybody watch the TV show based on this movie? I was suddenly reminded of its existence while reading this review. Just curious about how they handled all the uncomfortable parts of the story in the TV version without having to actually watch it.

  50. Chris – I don’t know if anyone around here would think it’s demeaning to Curtis. I just think it’s demeaning to the character.

  51. grimgrinningchris

    July 23rd, 2024 at 3:59 am

    Okay. I can see that. But I’m going to go with someone previous who said Harry understood Helen’s excitement at being pulled into a life of intrigue and excitement and he was using that both to continue her excitement and also as a bridge to tell her the truth. Remember that before she brained him with the phone and the room got overrun with terrorists he had a flower and was going to reveal himself and the truth. Was it demeaning to her? Maybe. But I never felt like that was his intention. He was trying to extend her fantasy as a bridge to him spilling his beans. Is this a measured or healthy or normal way to do this? Nooooo. Harry may be a Superspy and the best he is at what he does. But he’s an idiot when it comes to his family. That’s the joke.

  52. grimgrinningchris

    July 23rd, 2024 at 4:08 am

    And Maggie.
    I don’t think we’ve ever interacted directly in here. But I always love your thoughts and comments. Vern has cultivated a sight of measured and intelligent and polite and pleasant discourse of people all over the world but it is still, sadly, a sausage fest mostly (through no fault of anyones) So I cherish the few female perspectives we get here. Especially when it comes to things like this, of course.

  53. Vern,

    This will be a somewhat weird transition, but is ‘The Little Rascals’ on your ’94 rewatch?

    We had a family movie night a couple of weeks ago and somehow landed on that movie. It’s another one of those weird throwback pieces that when I watch in 2024, I think, “Did anyone in 1994 really want a Little Rascals movie?”

    I found parts of it somewhat boring because it just falls back on how little boys hate little girls and I just thought to myself, “Is this really the best they could do?” On the other hand, my daughters, 7 and 10, didn’t give a shit about that and found it to be a funny movie. I did overall enjoy the movie (for a family movie night) and I realize that I’m not the target audience, but it seems like another weird cultural artifact of the early ’90’s.

    Also there is a snooty rich white kid that I thought was Macaulay Culkin and then in the end credits saw that it was someone else. Looking at the actors IMDB, it has continued to work in entertainment, but I can’t help but think that Culkin ended up pushing that actor down to more minor roles.

  54. Falconman: I watched a few episodes of the TV series, but it’s not very memorable. IIRC, it cuts the sexism. Helen tags along on a “work trip” which turns into a spy adventure. I think she was a professor of linguistics(?) instead of a secretary, which gives her some skills to use in the field. Tom Arnold shows up in one ep as a different character, but still kind of a crass old-school spy guy like he plays in the movie.

  55. Universal★Rundle

    July 24th, 2024 at 9:40 am

    I haven’t seen any of the comments ask what it means that this is a straight-up conservative-coded movie.

    I’m on the (Canadian) left myself – when I saw TRUE LIES in high school I thought the striptease was hot but really uncomfortable, and the Arab bad guys praying in front of their bomb was grotesque – but in the end I’ve basically seen this as a script that wanted to be about unironic, uncomplicated Real Men and Real Women and Family Values and Waving the Flag. Not quite my values, and not quite the kind of script Cameron usually takes, but also rare enough in Hollywood that I can see why a lot of Americans were, like, finally, one for me – and maybe why Cameron would have wanted to try his hand at it? I love how seriously Vern takes right-coded like stuff like DEATH WISH or AMERICAN SNIPER, taking them on their own terms and looking for conversation across the divide – like looking at TRUE LIES’ cartoon villains in terms of how boring it makes them, instead of just how racist. Still, TRUE LIES strikes me as a blockbuster that does full right-wing worldview in a way that hardly ever gets done, and Blue film buffs tend to kind of short-circuit and not know what to do with that when it’s done with actual craft – like say with DRAGGED ACROSS CONCRETE. We’re way more comfortable when there’s a plausible-deniability wink involved, like in RED DAWN or TOP GUN: MAVERICK or TWISTERS. Then it’s okay for both audiences. But TRUE LIES isn’t that. It’s still a gross, fascinating one to me.

  56. Let’s be honest, that the American action cinema of the 80s and 90s is pretty conservative and often downright faschist is no secret. Some were more open about it (INVASION USA or RAMBO 2 & 3 for example), lots of them got away with it by having likeable heroes (Arnie) and being damn good popcorn entertainment, But yeah, I can imagine if through a weird rift in the space/time continuum all of our favourite action flicks of that era would suddenly be made today, we would be way more critical of a bunch of things. Not just the blatantly flag waving ones.

  57. I think there’s a lot of recency bias in this comment section. You guys really think all Bonds before Daniel Craig were racist? You’re jumping through the Overton Window here.

  58. It’s less recency bias and more a revision of values and language, I think.

    Definitions and thresholds around isms have shifted a lot, and so there are big generation gaps. Also education gaps — people with college education (and especially second- or nth-generation college graduates) vs. non-college-educated think and talk about isms in very different ways. Same with people who are online a ton and on social media. If you are young, college-educated or child of college-educated professionals, and online a lot, you think and talk very differently about these things — on average. In an online work forum, I pushed back on someone who was insisting that there should still be public mask mandates in 2022, and the person called me an “ableist,” since some people with compromised immune systems might still be at risk. So, the big divide at this point is that you could be actively in a mixed-race/ethnicity gay marriage and be a lifelong Democrat, and you would still be considered various forms of bigotted if, for instance, you had engaged in “deadnaming” or were opposed to affirmative action. At one point, there were credible mainstream articles suggesting that believing the lab leak theory of COVID was tantamount to anti-Asian hate.

    I am not personally taking a position on all these things (I would not knowingly deadname a person, for instance), but I think the big shift is that isms are now connected to expressing certain political opinions even if there is no indication of personal animus in your interpersonal conduct.

    As a descriptive and practical matter, I think this dynamic has been bad for progressive causes, as it’s led the Democratic party to sustain heavy losses of non-college voters, including massive losses among Latino voters and some losses among Black male voters, which tend to be broadly much more culturally conservative than white, college-educated progressives. Ever time a progressive wags their finger at Joe Rogan or “misinformation,” a GOP angel gets its wings.

    All of that is to say that a lot of talking past happens based on thresholds and definitions of racist. If you are a white woman married to an African-American husband, and you are opposed to affirmative action, you might be considered racist by some based on their view that opposition to affirmative action (or reparations or whatever) is intrinsically racist. Similar to my examples of ableism and so forth.

    The real victim of this PC / cancel culture war on American patriots / stolen election / deep state conspiracy is Cliff Curtis: If Cliff Curtis were to play a Colombian (?) terrorist caled the Wolf (?) in a middling action movie in 2024, I think that would be considered racist. This is what is at stake!!!!! (joking).

    Public Service Announcement: Racism and other isms (as I define them) are bad, and I would vote for a hamster surrounded by a good team of Democratic operatives before I would vote for a Republican.

  59. I think it’s more of a kneejerk response to say that anything that was created A While Ago must be Unenlightened, therefore Bad, not backed by anything except thoughtless assumption. I mean, what specifically is racist about The World Is Not Enough? Tomorrow Never Dies? The Living Daylights?

  60. Quite possibly, and my comment may have been only adjacent or tangential and based on my own hobby horses.

    I’ve literally never seen any of those films. I’m sure someone will say that they objectify women and glorify British imperialism and make non-European or developing world people seem exotic or don’t represent them enough or something. And they’re probably right if you anachronistically imposed 2024 progressive values on 1990s popcorn films.

  61. I think by talking about the movies of a different era, we’re talking about different people. There were more racially-diverse communities back in the 1990’s. Today (unless I’m hearing wrong), segregation is statistically as bad or as worse than it’s ever been, all across the country. A lot of people genuinely, willingly, have no minority neighbors. That affects everyone’s point of view, whether it results in paternalistic oversensitivity and/or hardcore jackass behavior. I think that has affected the stories we tell today, and how we tell them.

  62. I think segregation over time has been decreasing modestly, but not a ton (google the article: Metropolitan Segregation: No Breakthrough in Sight by the Census).

    In contemporary times, I think people choose housing largely based on affluence — up to a point, you move to a place with better-funded schools, lower violent crime rates, less obvious blight (graffitti, litter, etc.). Whether you can do that depends on your income, which is correlated with race/ethnicity for a variety of reasons that vary according to group (historical issues impacting African-American wealth and housing are well-documented, redlining, etc.; Asian Americans — which is a ridiculously broad category — average higher-income, are over-represented among physicians, etc., but there is heterogeneity across Asian American sub-groups). And among immigrant and refugee populations, you see a lot of self-segregation (that will lesson over a period of generations).

    Nationally, we are getting more diverse obviously, and rates of racial/ethnic intermarriage have doubled since 1990 and and are 20% of newlywed marriages, as has approval of this.

    I think you could go a lot of other directions with this. I would say that we’re segregated by wealth and education and political partisanship, and the effects of that are pretty pernicious, too.

    All of that is to say that I do not think consciously avoiding ethnic others is as big of a choice in housing as might first appear — contemporarily.

    But I digress. How has it affected the stories we tell?

  63. Well, for one, I think there’s a key point in casting that has changed, in that it is Hollywood presenting how they WANT the world to work, with a diverse coalition of people. In reality, within certain communities, you’ll see entire professions dominated by Latinos, you’ll see places visited by only Black citizens. And of course, you’ll have white-dominant areas. Often, in real life, I don’t think this is worth commenting on, I think it’s pretty basic stuff as far as where people live. But if you present a small bubble of a neighborhood as one specific demographic in a contemporary movie, it is supposed to send a negative message. Whereas, in the movies, some of these jobs will be seen as always a variation of 60%/40% men-to-women, whites, Blacks, Hispanics and maybe Asians together.

    In earlier films in Hollywood, obviously white-dominant spaces were the norm, without further comment. But when there was a dominant group of, say, Latinos, it would be to convey a (probably racist) shorthand. Even when these depictions hewed towards positive or comical, they were coded negatively, over the soundtrack, via lighting, that sort of thing.

    I think it’s amusing how Hollywood cannot depict a racially-inoffensive work or community situation that is PRIMARILY not white. Like, you can have Fast and the Furious. But you can’t have an auto body shop where they primarily speak Spanish in the middle of town — it always has to be in the poorer section of the neighborhood. You can’t have a library in the white part of town with a staff that is entirely Black, even though that definitely exists.

    Once you have these demographics in place, it definitely informs what stories you can or cannot tell.

  64. I think action movies in general are sort of right leaning, because they are about solving problems by killing people…might makes right, make sure you got the guns, etc. Question is, what are left leaning action movies? The main ones I can think of is traditional-styled martial arts movies because a lot of times they teach about using the skills for defense and protection. Karate Kid is not an action movie per se, but that’s a leftie version of how to use violence. Stuff like Fearless is another good one, or like Drunken Master 2.

    I think Cameron’s other movies might be kinda lefty, Aliens is about using violence to protect and save people while the idiots spoilig for a fight turn out to be incompetent, Terminator was well, all about defensive fighting, Avatars are for sure.

    Starship Troopers is a lefty movie that right wingers may not realize is not what they think it is..my pops was a huge fan and took it at face value.

  65. So no one can point to anything specifically racist in any of the Brosnan or Dalton Bond movies?

  66. The historical record will show that James Bond was a darker-skinned Middle Eastern man, whereas the Bond films have whitewashed him. I dunno, Kaplan, I mean, what do you want me to say? Who gives a shit, you have a segment of people that will call anything racist or something-ist has been my main point. And in some ways these things are just the latest opportunity to launder their general views on the issue.

    GlaiveRobber — Okay, that’s about what I thought you meant, and it makes sense. I thought you might be trying to say that movies are like more racist now or something (due to the geographic segregation), and I was like, no, that doesn’t make sense.But what you ended up saying makes sense.

    Muh – I think movies like this are about strong human agents, so, there is an authoritarian and individualist element, even if those two things seem contradictory. It’s the “strong man” / “great man” / “I alone can fix it” element that appeals to all of us. Women want him, men want to be him — vibes. I want a good strong person to come take out the garbage and put things right, through decisive, quick, concrete action. And I want to see rough justice meted out to the villain. That human psychology is very powerful — it’s the same thing pulsing under Shirley Jackson’s THE LOTTERY and whatnot. On some level, these stories satisfy our reptile brains. These same films also tend to promote mistrust of institutions. They are sclerotic and bumbling at best or corrupt and sinister at worse. So, there is a strong folk libertarian / manosphere-before-the-manosphere energy that is there, which is what I think Vern has been wrestling with and trying to engage with over these years:How to enjoy these films without embracing the shitty politics. Which I think is possible. I love horror movies, but I don’t think murder and hopelessness and evil are good.

    Good dialogue. I like when people are willing to create space to think about these things with a little more nuance than just “good people with good views” vs. “shitty people.” There are shitty views and behaviors and even people who seem more shitty than not, but I think a true progressive and intellectually curious person will resist the temptation to reduce discourse and people to the very kinds of binaries/dualisms and stereotyped caricatures that they profess to be against. I have had to overcome and work through a lot of my own shitty views, and I know I still have plenty, but we won’t get anywhere if we’re constantly in a defensive and/or accusatory posture.

  67. Skani: This is why I have a problem with the term “woke.” It’s past tense. It indicates the completion of a process. You are either woke or you or not yet woke, like a switch being thrown. But I don’t think it works that way. I think we should all endeavor to be constantly waking. There is always more to learn, more perspectives to consider, and to assume one has already achieved a state of full consciousness indicates a lack of humility that prohibits future growth.

  68. No lies detected. Thank you for these words and for your patience with me as I try to wake up a little more.

  69. Kaplan- In our collective defence, only one specific person said the “all pre-Craig Bond films were kind of racist” thing, and they don’t seem to have posted here in the last few days, so it seems possible and even likely they haven’t responded to your challenge because they haven’t read it. Just because no one else responded does not mean we all silently agree; I know when I read it I thought “hmm, that’s a stretch, to say the least”, but I didn’t personally think it would be worth quarrelling. Sadly most people just aren’t interested in movies when they pass a certain age, and will dismiss them simply by saying “but they’re old!”. Saying all old movies are racist or sexist or whatever may be more unfair on the people who created them, and yeah often it annoys me when I see it, but ultimately it’s just another way to dismiss old movies, and making the counter arguments probably won’t create many more TCM subscribers. (Do you have subscribe to watch TCM? Whatever, you get what I mean)

    But I guess while we’re here I’m guessing some people (not me) might take issue with the depiction of South American drug gangs in LICENCE TO KILL, the way North Korea is handled in DIE ANOTHER DAY and god knows how to unpack the RAMBO III-esque stuff with the Mujahideen in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS at this point.

  70. Jonathan Pryce does a chopsocky impression at Michelle Yeoh but he’s the bad guy.

    I don’t feel noticing something older is I enlightened automatically makes it bad. It makes it more interesting. If we can’t interpret how society has changed via art then there’s much less reason to rewatch something from the past.

  71. Jonathan Pryce does a chopsocky impression at Michelle Yeoh but he’s the bad guy.

    I don’t feel noticing something older is I enlightened automatically makes it bad. It makes it more interesting. If we can’t interpret how society has changed via art then there’s much less reason to rewatch something from the past.

  72. I think those who are being accused of being woke are enlightened enough to being able to watch old movies. I’m more concerned about the one million messages a day on the net claiming “BLAZING SADDLES could never have been made today”. They really don’t get it.

  73. Pegsman, I think there’s a lot of overlap between Blazing Saddles tweeters and those who keep pointing out for the first time that you never noticed Twin Pines Mall becomes Lone Pine in Back to the Future.

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